Lawyers abusing legal aid system - review

New Zealanders have a desperate need to grow up!! The reality is legal aid is a process that is broken...time and lack of attention have seen to that...and like a leaky pipe or a road with pot holes, there are some points that need more attention than others...For what ever reason this as an issue has floated to the top of the political pile and its flames are being stoked by the media feeding pack.... If this was happening in a commercial environment we would find out what was wrong and sort it....name calling and or buck passing or as Cynical would like us to all do...jump on a the the media generated finger point band wagon...does nothing....so lets all suck it up and fix it not finger point or blame shift...

Hypocrisy? valid at some level I guess....Anecdotal evidence? no just hear say if you want to be technical.

Warren is this about being clever with words (as that’s not my strength) or should the debate be about a report that is presented to the public without supporting evidence. I was not paid to write this report, I am giving an unqualified opinion and it’s not being presented to Simon Power to take action on. I think you will agree there is a difference in the required standard here.

Warren of course a percentage of Lawyers will be corrupt and so will a percentage of every profession out there. What those percentages are I have no idea but statistics will say they are there.

My wife and her business model isn’t really the issue, it’s the fact that all lawyers are slandered with these statements. If it was a race based statement that “up to 80% of any ethnic group did blah blah blah” it would be considered racist.

If a “car boot lawyer” is someone with a professional office at home then yes she would considered a car boot lawyer.

If the premises issue is what is being raised in the “car boot lawyer” comments (and I don’t think it is) then let's address that. I can understand that argument as potential abuse but again let’s see the evidence. The court has interview rooms and that's presumably what they are there for but perhaps not.

Criminal Barristers are by nature very individualistic and many of the senior lawyers do work from home offices. Many are lawyers with 20+ years experience not someone who has just hung out their shingle as is implied.

My understanding is that names have been supplied to Margaret Bazley by individual Lawyers directly and by the Law Society.

I would be very happy to see these people investigated by Legal Services, the Law Society and the Police if appropriate.

Reply: “Husband of Legal Aid Lawyer 28 Nov 2009 10:07a.m. Warren when it comes to justice...”

Firstly if I may address your hypocrysy. You complain about “no names, locations and no evidence...” Then you go on to provide your own but somehow valid anecdotal evidence because you say so: “...I’m 100% positive ...” and “...But we all know...”. I hope I, and perhaps others feel the same, that I or others are not somehow included in your “we”. Then after insisting how these claims are all unfounded you say: “I’m 100% positive there are corrupt lawyers ...” and “...Well that’s a certainly possible but ...” are you conceding there is some truth here or categorically denying this report?

Your second post again goes into defending your wife as she goes about: “...giving them bus money to get them home...”, as I stated I am not doubting the integrity of your wife, I however do believe she may be part of the 20% minority.

To address your “...car boot lawyer statement...” after all your defense, you now make your wife out to sound like a 'car boot lawyer'? The issue I believe being raised over this, is that 'car boot' lawyers are utilising Tax Payer funded utilities, premesis and equipment for personal gain and profit. Of course this would be efficient as currently these are all 'free'. However we make transport companies pay extra for making personal gain and profit off a roading network provided for by the Tax Payer, therefore it is fair to say 'car boot' lawyers are made to somehow pay directly for these services or supply their own and charge them against their business.

I have run out of characters to post the rest. Also at times it only seems to let you post one comment.

Also in brief I concede that the evidence needs to be more solid, however to quote the above report :“...approached... Dame Bazley with the names of culprits.”

• Finally let’s look at some of the motives behind the “Professional” remarks. Auckland based lawyers have been forced to come to Manukau court to get work as its now the busiest in New Zealand. Local Lawyers who have served this court, Manurewa and Papatoetoe before that for 20 years clearly have the inside running on the work as they are well known. There are huge egos related to lost briefs woven into this debate which translates of course to lost MONEY. These Auckland lawyers have their Auckland offices but few clients and come to Manukau and see very busy Lawyers with no visible offices. I can understand how they have propagated the “Car Boot Lawyer” comments to their own ends but let’s understand it is at least in part sour grapes.

• “Car boot Lawyers” this is an interesting one. My wife has had chambers (offices), and has had offices at home and currently runs a home office. What I continually hear is her organizing to pick up clients to make sure they make court appearances, giving them bus money to get them home from court. Now start reflecting on the issues. Where is the best place to meet her clients given their limited transportation, her and our families safety needs and efficient use of time for a senior lawyer. When my wife had chambers in I was always worried about every meeting, when she meets clients in the court environment I have less safety concerns. Even then she and other female lawyers need security assistance to get to their cars. This is not a simply subject and needs a little more reflection.
• The car boot lawyer statement is a remark on a business model not a comment on the quality of the lawyers or its efficiency and yet they have been negatively mixed. Let’s talk about good and bad lawyers not their business model. The way my wife has adopted mobile technology, phone, text, lap top has transformed her efficiency and improved her service delivery to her clients. We have mobile mechanics, mobile coffee delivery, mobile libraries, mobile almost everything and they are all considered good based on service delivery.
• Simon Powers wants to run counter to Nationals normal model that private enterprise is the most efficient model and wants to expand the public defenders model of salaried lawyers. Interesting how private enterprise is only efficient when we are privatizing public assets and not when it comes to providing legal services. There is significant political influence also at play here.

Warren when it comes to justice, legal aid, criminals and my business efficient views on life my wife and I seldom agree. However let’s review what has been said, its impact and motivations.
• “Up to 200 lawyers across New Zealand are corrupt”. No names, no locations and no evidence. Well that’s about as helpful as saying “up to 80% of male teachers are potential pedophiles” It brings an entire industry and decent people into disrepute and lowers the perceived quality to the public and recipient of justice and frankly just put cost into the legal system as criminals will now start saying their lawyers where incompetent every time they don’t like the advise they get. I’m 100% positive there are corrupt lawyers as there are corrupt politicians and corrupt police and as we have just seen judges that have less commercial wisdom than one would like. But we all know the majority of politicians, police and judges are not corrupt or gaming the system.
• “Up to 80% of lawyers in South Auckland could be gaming the system” Well first a definition of gaming might be appropriate so we have some context on how to judge the relevance of that statement. “Up to 80% of insurance claims may be claimants gaming the system” Well that’s a certainly possible but what’s the actual evidence…..None, what’s the evidence here none.

Quote: "Husband of Legal Aid Lawyer 27 Nov 2009 8:18p.m. I watch my wife prepare for lengthy court cases and I can assure the public that these claims are not true..." I understand your need to defend your wife. But your wife being dedicated to her job, and more than 200 lawyers or 80% of Manukau lawyers 'gaming' are not mutually exclusive. I think it's great that your wife is trying to stand up and protect the weak,the poor and the innocent BUT she is of the MINORITY (read 20%). White collar crime is just growing more and more rampant, the report could be seen as saying that there are not enough people like your wife. I also cannot stay silent while you say "...insult to a noble profession...", if your wife is as honest as you say ask her if she thinks this is a noble profession. Sayings like Justice can be bought, and Justice is for the rich, come about for good reason. You should look into some ancient Roman History from where our 'Justice' system originates (I think I am correct in saying this?), you might be surprised to find that its not quite as fair or noble as you think.

If the glove does not fit, and you uphold Justice, then hold your head up high.

I watch my wife prepare for lengthy court cases and I can assure the public that these claims are not true. If my wife was paid by the hour she would be a millionaire.

The fees that are quoted in public are gross, with GST added and with all the specialist fees they pay for expert witnesses included. The actual taxable income could be half the figures quoted publically or less.

I cannot say all lawyers are honest but surely Dame Bazley understands the need for evidence and how wrong creating prejudice is in any matter involving natural justice. To accuse up to 200 lawyers as corrupt or 80 percent of Manuakua Lawyers as gaming the system is inflammatory and totally without evidence and smacks of political agenda.

Access to justice is important for any society and we have a good framework here in New Zealand. Yes lets weed out bad lawyers and throw them in prison if required but wholesale name calling is an insult to a noble profession. Its only when your son or daughter is in trouble that you will understand just how important this profession is. I have seen many a sleepless night when my wife knows a client is innocent and she is the only person between him (or her) and a lengthy prison sentence while all the resources of the state are on the others side.

If the glove fits...wear it.